有報導說元旦大遊行時，陳巧文指長毛抽水（！），翌日，當某電視台打算跟進報導時，我已表明除非社民連會就事件作出評論，否則我不會有任何回應，但他們於電話中要求我評論其他事情的sound bite，卻被剪輯仿成訪問，然後再找來長毛回應我的評論。要還長毛甚至我本人一個公道，別無選擇地要在此澄清一下。
陳巧文沒說長毛抽水，但陳巧文及至少二十個青年人確曾說過「反對社民連抽水」。我從沒怪責長毛提醒及勸籲我們一眾年青示威者，也明白到他的關心及憂慮，因而我們有關「抽水」的言論，矛頭亦非指向長毛。某些不在場的網民提出我們對著長毛喊「社民連抽水」跟喊「長毛抽水」沒分別的言論亦是不成立的，因為我們一眾叫「反對社民連抽水」時長毛跟本不在我們視線範圍內。確實有抽水的人當然沒膽量過來跟我們對質，但長毛當場顯然激動得不願/未能聆聽我的解釋，只顧罵我「不是人」等等。
批評一個黨的處事行為，是否就要被罵「不是人」，就見仁見智，不過我也能理解，雖然影帶也紀錄了我們確實只喊「社民連」，然而當場的混亂及嘈吵也許令長毛誤以為我們是指他個人，所以才會如此激動。
令我們憤而指出社民連抽水，當然並非如長毛所誤解，因為他提醒我們當場的環境存左危險，呼籲我們冷靜，而是其他「社民連大佬」的行為。
帶頭推動鐵馬、衝往對面中聯辦的，差不多全都是自發的市民，而非社民連一眾。圖片可見，第一排沒幾個紅衫的，後來卻說成全是社民的人／點子，真令人費解。我們衝前，黃毓民罵我們不冷靜；我們不斷被警察推、撞、拉、甚至打，唯有坐下以示和平及希望能阻止警察的推撞，黃毓民竟然在此時用咪高風說：「陳巧文，你唔好玩野啦！」
一，保護自己、堅持抗爭，何為「玩野」？二，為何要指名道姓，公開惡意中傷一個小市民？社民連大佬使用擴音器或其他平台點名侮辱一些堅持沒大佬批准而抗爭的小市民，已非首次，而黃主席亦非唯一者，當然也非只有在下領教過。訂定、實行抗爭，是大佬們的專利嗎？
言歸正傳，若沒有市民自發衝往中聯辦門口的，大家（包括社民連黃毓民、陳偉業及許多其他社民連一眾）可能還是一直呆在對面被指劃的區域。但推開鐵馬的是我們，領工就是他們，早前說不要衝門口，及後鐵馬被衝倒，沒衝前的社民連大佬就立時指揮場面，要怎怎怎抬棺材到門口，又把四五行動的棺材說成好像根本就是社民連的。一位在場的自發市民及後在網上指出：「其實唔係我地要功勞, 推跌個鉄馬有幾出奇, 只係d嘢明明唔係lsd做, 佢地就攞彩」。我們希望要credit任何人的，就credit一群也許是無名的自發市民，而不是被一些沒甚功勞或甚至開始時便反對衝擊警察的政黨（大佬）。
那沒打緊，抽水便抽吧 ---- 反正我們亦樂見棺材能被抬至中聯辦門外。眾人讓出一條路給抬棺，另一社民連大佬陳偉業卻居然呼籲「現需30個社民連糾察過來維持秩序！」，要紅衫糾察手拉手地站於自發市民和棺材將經過的位置之間攔著我們！在場多名友人都即時暗忖，這安排將令一片紅衫入鏡，又可順帶顯示社民連維持秩序，抽水抽得太明顯吧？但抽水還抽水，為何要做到彷彿我們自發年青人是要受到控制才不會防礙棺材通過？我們不是早已讓路嗎？還要「作狀」手拉手攔著我們，不是吧？
某些人在不同場合也用盡辦法抽水已不是第一次，抱怨的也不只是什麼「80後」。現場還有更多未能於此一一導出的事情，亦不曉得能否將當場氣紛呈現，實在只想帶出一個信息：當場那那麼多高叫「反對社民連抽水」的市民，與其責罵陳巧文一個人、斷定批評社民連就一定是不對，或許社民連大佬們及其支持者也不妨反思一下，為何這些一向支持民主自由、支持草根抗爭、甚至曾經支持或仍在支持社民連幾位大佬的年輕人，在今時今日會認為社民連某些人是只顧抽水？
-------------------------------------------------------------
note: 喊「反對社民連抽水」的根本不單只我一人，不肯面對這事實，繼續single out我一人，對於一些盲目反對任何對社民連之質疑的人來說，的確有好處 -- 只要對一個女孩作人身攻擊便成了。但公道自在人心，看片便知道當場不滿社民連抽水的年青人多的是，又怎會是我一人誣告社民連來「出風頭」呢？當然，人們大可繼續一如以往，於我作出某些他們不愜意的言論，便罵我發言只因愛上鏡，然而大家可曾採用同一標準去衡量經常出鏡、言行比我更出位的社民連大佬呢？
-----------------------------------------------------------
some comments on our action by someone (and my replies)
pica: "下次, 唔該你真係想"坐低"的話, 行隊尾, 企埋一邊
等其他黨派d人走得七七八八, 你先同你d fd坐埋一邊坐飽佢.":
不是有計劃地坐低，as i said，我們不斷被警察推、撞、拉、甚至打，唯有坐下以示和平及希望能阻止警察的推撞，我們一伙人坐下再起來都幾次了，只是想尋找最安全的方法，在中聯辦門口表達意見，繫上黃絲帶
也沒事先計劃衝破警察防線：大部分人事先也不知道有防線，而當時行動，是因為身變自發的市民都不滿警察的安排，決定堅持到對面請願
"中聯辦都冇人辦公, 中央d人都睇唔到. 你最多只係同緊警察對抗, 而唔係中央."
香港警察就是為中央辦事嘛！影響不到中央的話，又何必如此緊張呢？再說，香港警察不尊重我們的基本公民權利，即使沒有中央在後操縱，我們也要對抗，以捍衛自己及其他人的權利！
"如果你係去擋坦克的話, 死左至少會有人懷念話你有吉屎..呢個場合, 冇乜犧牲價值"
每個人民要表達意見但被阻撓，堅持自己的公民權利都是有意義，有價值的！！！
倘若我們為爭取到中聯辦門外表達對民主的訴求而犧牲，而沒人懷念我們，那由它吧！我們知道我們做了對的事！
我們不是希望犧牲，但我們有承受風險的準備，而一同過來的市民也一樣。社民連或其他人怕被牽連的話，不要過來，劃清界線就好了（而當初她們的確如此）。這爭取民主的大遊行不是屬於社民連的，是屬於所有參與的市民包括自發或其他政黨的 -- 有非社民連或非支持五區公投的人在場，莫非你曾叫黃毓民停止用擴音系統宣傳自己的政黨及五區公投？總不能說因為有他們的人在場，我們便不可繼續堅持我們的公民權利。
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
some comments made by other non-LSD people who were there on the day:
"群眾衝出去時，社民連大部分人正執行與警方商定「可由二十人抬棺材到門前」的「協議」。
群眾突破封鎖而影響既得利益者，在他們眼內這不叫「玩野」？！"
(my replies: 表達意見的自由是每個公民都應嚮有的，要代其他市民談判的話，便應堅持安排給機會所有人到中聯辦繫上黃絲帶及示威：為什麼20個社民連自己挑選的人有特權可代表其他未授權予她們的市民？民主精神到那去了？
we're sick of accepting some pathetic political deals made by politicians and the police if we say we're gonna go somewhere and tie a ribbon on the door, we WILL try and do it instead of just standing in some box drawn for us far far away and shouting a few slogans before going home fooling ourselves that we've alre...ady tried our best. for all those LSD people who came with us, WELL.DONE. good on you!)
"「現需30個社民連糾察過來維持秩序！」這筒真令人發火!!!
如果社民連覺得自發人士是暴徒，他們連暴徒也不如！(當然，我看到有少部份社民連成員也有份推鐵馬，不過黃幫主太可笑)"
"其實唔係我地要功勞, 推跌個鉄馬有幾出奇, 只係d嘢明明唔係lsd做, 佢地就攞彩, 唔發難等幾時先......"(my reply: totally agree. it should be credited to a bunch of 無名的自發市民，而非無功勞及甚至起初反對衝破防線的政黨／政黨大佬)
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雖然依家有左youtube, 但事情真相大家(網民,記者,普通市民)永遠都唔會觸摸到.
ReplyDelete社民連同你地元旦搞左一日,對自己都無乜大的好處(金錢上),大家都攞個心出來,做番自己果份就算吧.對事,不要對人.
前面的路重好漫長,為相同而團結,對抗外邊其他人啦
同埋依家附和你們的人開始多,form個正式的團體同其他黨派多作協調,可能會減少以後更的的誤會.
謝謝閱讀!
"何必呢? 多一個朋友好過多一個敵人, 要記住大方向, 而唔係小枝節!! 再為小枝節嘈嘈嘈, 就TMD無希望啦!"
ReplyDelete我當日行隊尾, 係一個同你一齊行去中聯辦的80後, 老過你些少, 當然, 你唔會認識我.
ReplyDelete以前我欣賞你夠薑fing雪山獅子旗, 但你1/1果日做既野我不敢苟同.
我本來仲以為讀哲學既人個腦會大d聰明d.
萬一你響混亂冇緊忽肉, 你知唔知已經唔係你個人問題, 而係牽涉到好多人?
包括發起遊行既團體(eg.蔡耀昌), 帶隊尾既社民連(因為你跟既係隊尾位置), 一定俾人片到飛起, 又多左機會俾d左報大造文章.
到頭來你做埋d無謂犧牲之餘仲帶黎反效果.
我見到既係社民三子唔想有人受傷先咁緊張你, 語氣重左
而唔係你口中既抽水.
何況你已經係大眾所知既活躍社運分子, 都唔想你有咩冬瓜豆腐.
長毛話齋 "你咁細粒", 我估你俾人踩中幾腳的話至少斷三兩條肋骨.
如果你係去擋坦克的話, 死左至少會有人懷念話你有吉屎
如果係你自己響混亂中坐低而俾人踩死, 只會有人話80後班人係癲狗, 支持民主既人都係搞事分子, blablabla.
何況呢個場合, 冇乜犧牲價值. 中聯辦都冇人辦公, 中央d人都睇唔到. 你最多只係同緊警察對抗, 而唔係中央.
下次, 唔該你真係想"坐低"的話, 行隊尾, 企埋一邊
等其他黨派d人走得七七八八, 你先同你d fd坐埋一邊坐飽佢.
唔岩聽既, remove個comment喇.
andrew:"同埋依家附和你們的人開始多,form個正式的團體同其他黨派多作協調,可能會減少以後更的的誤會."
ReplyDeletethough i am grateful for all suggestions, i really really am, but i myself as well as other 自發市/網民 have no intention of starting any new organisation, even though we might not necessarily agree withe existing organisations, simply because none of us believe in the need of leaders and strict rules of certain organisations as well as all the other useless bureaucratic stuff we would get caught in if we started an organisation
times are different now, and organising action doesn't need to be with a organisation, and i think the most important thing is for young people to *rise up* independently and think for themselves - fight for what we believe for, not what we're told to do, neither by existing parties or by the CCP or the HK government/police. we can't just rely on others forever, WE MUST TAKE THE INITIATIVE
chan: 很多網上的朋友勸告：「多一個朋友好過多一個敵人」等等，萬分感謝，但只能說：可惜人家一開始就不視我們這年青的activists為朋友呢..
ReplyDelete從danny summer事件開始就明顯看到人家不視我們年青的什麼的朋友了
開名鬧人、人身攻擊，不是個別事件
pica: "下次, 唔該你真係想"坐低"的話, 行隊尾, 企埋一邊
ReplyDelete等其他黨派d人走得七七八八, 你先同你d fd坐埋一邊坐飽佢."
不是有計劃地坐低，as i said，我們不斷被警察推、撞、拉、甚至打，唯有坐下以示和平及希望能阻止警察的推撞，我們一伙人坐下再起來都幾次了，只是想尋找最安全的方法，在中聯辦門口表達意見，繫上黃絲帶
也沒事先計劃衝破警察防線：大部分人事先也不知道有防線，而當時行動，是因為身變自發的市民都不滿警察的安排，決定堅持到對面請願
"中聯辦都冇人辦公, 中央d人都睇唔到. 你最多只係同緊警察對抗, 而唔係中央."
香港警察就是為中央辦事嘛！影響不到中央的話，又何必如此緊張呢？再說，香港警察不尊重我們的基本公民權利，即使沒有中央在後操縱，我們也要對抗，以捍衛自己及其他人的權利！
"如果你係去擋坦克的話, 死左至少會有人懷念話你有吉屎..呢個場合, 冇乜犧牲價值"
每個人民要表達意見但被阻撓，堅持自己的公民權利都是有意義，有價值的！！！
倘若我們為爭取到中聯辦門外表達對民主的訴求而犧牲，而沒人懷念我們，那由它吧！我們知道我們做了對的事！
我們不是希望犧牲，但我們有承受風險的準備，而一同過來的市民也一樣。社民連或其他人怕被牽連的話，不要過來，劃清界線就好了（而當初她們的確如此）。這爭取民主的大遊行不是屬於社民連的，是屬於所有參與的市民包括自發或其他政黨的 -- 有非社民連或非支持五區公投的人在場，莫非你曾叫黃毓民停止用擴音系統宣傳自己的政黨及五區公投？總不能說因為有他們的人在場，我們便不可繼續堅持我們的公民權利。
KillTime Lee chapest2005
ReplyDelete我明長毛為何扯火, 街頭抗爭20年有餘
以為有一班年青人有同一熱情衝勁
勇於表達自己看法, 誰不知就在緊張關頭
在身旁大叫”社民連抽水”.
傷得自己最深的,往往就係自己最在乎的人.
13 小時前發佈 · 檢舉
長毛永遠是英雄 永遠是同一陣線的
社民連也是
又何需為小事而爭吵呢?
我想問"北極有企鵝，香港有民主" DIY t-shirt, 仲有冇货?
ReplyDelete長毛永遠是英雄: 英雄主義對所有人（就連該「英雄」）也是危險的!要民主自由，便要自己爭取，不可指意「英雄」，不能搞個人崇拜.
ReplyDelete又何需為小事而爭吵:的確不是指控長毛，亦從未希望與他爭吵
也許我們真的不應對大佬們質疑，但一眾小市民被黃主席點名罵「肥妹」、「癲佬」、「讀多D書先抗爭」（我們當中有比黃主席及長毛讀更多書的人）等，是很難受的，我本人今次被他點名指責是「玩野」，亦被其他大佬用咪點名罵「chi X sin」，卻只會有人勸告我們不要跟他們爭吵，但沒人會指出他們的言行也很過分，他們公然地對我們很不客氣，我們年青的activists，從未反對過他們，只想自己堅持抗爭，還以為大家同一陣線，卻換來被在電台或公眾場合點名humiliate，還要忍氣吞聲多久？？？
但謝謝你的忠告，我亦會留意，可能我們應永遠地沈默吧，說出真相，也不會被諒解。對外人來說，大佬們永遠是英雄，永遠是對的。
Karen: "北極有企鵝，香港有民主" DIY t-shirt, 有! two left.
ReplyDelete圖片可見，第一排沒幾個紅衫的，後來卻說成全是社民的人／點子，真令人費解。
ReplyDelete[說"全是社民的人／點子"的都是傳媒
冤有頭債有主, 你卻怪罪社民連, 是否不會情理呢?]
我們衝前，某社民連大佬（非長毛）罵我們不冷靜；我們不斷被警察推、撞、拉、甚至打，唯有坐下以示和平及希望能阻止警察的推撞，黃毓民竟然在此時用咪高風說：「陳巧文，你唔好玩野啦！」
[陳小姐, 你們帶頭推鐵馬, 的確是值得嘉許, 但你又是否知道缺口一打開, 但有很多示威市民從行人路兩邊湧進馬路(小弟就是其中之一), 你們在前面的坐下, 後面的人卻不停向前推, 有知識的人都知有多危險.]
但推開鐵馬的是我們，領工就是他們，早前說不要衝門口，及後鐵馬被衝倒，沒衝前的社民連大佬就立時指揮場面，要怎怎怎抬棺材到門口，又把四五行動的棺材說成好像根本就是社民連的。那打緊，抽水便抽吧 ---- 反正我們亦樂見棺材能被抬至中聯辦門外。
[陳小姐，你說的沒錯, 黃毓民、陳偉業他們那時的確是身處西區警署的位置, 他們跟我一樣, 本來靜待長毛等人在對面馬路把棺材抬進中聯辦門口便完成遊行, 突然聽到後方人聲鼎沸, 小弟爬上欄杆從遠距離一看, 卻見警方的鐵馬已被推開, 一大群紅衫單從行人路湧進街上, 根本就看不清是誰頭推鐵馬, 什麼"領功", "抽水"實在不知從何說起
至於"沒衝前的社民連大佬就立時指揮場面", 你說是自發的市民帶頭推鐵馬, 而非社民連一眾, 但你不能否認在場的有八九成都是紅衫軍吧, 任何一個有責任的政治領袖, 看見一大群支持者失控, 跑出來指揮人群、控制場面不是應有之舉嗎?
你不滿社民連出來指揮場面, 那小弟想問你, 你有打算出來指揮場面嗎? 你們有沒有事先準備大聲公、鋁梯之類的道具呢?
今次跟你們之前的行動不一樣, 不是數十人的行動, 如果你不打算出來指揮場面, 又不願意看見社民連指揮, 那幾百人擠在街上一團混亂, 有可能導至的後果你有考慮清楚嗎?]
我們不是早已讓路嗎？還要「作狀」手拉手攔著我們，不是吧？
[陳小姐，你們一眾都是背向中聯辦, 所受的衝突當然較少, 因為壓力都給面向中聯辦的一排糾察承受了.
小弟就是三十個糾察之一, 當時跟旁邊的人手臂扣手臂面向中聯辦組成人鏈, 棺材一進來, 後面的兩三排記者及一大群示威人仕就立即向前擠過來, 人人都想霸個好位置看到實況, 小弟有好幾次差點被衝開, 又有好幾次差點被推跌.
你在對面當然風平浪靜, 我在這邊只想著一定要頂住唔鬆得手, 否則場面一定會亂.]
[小弟只有一個建議
你那麼介意社民連抽水
那下次請在社民連走得一乾二淨後才行動吧]
陳巧文小姐 妳的確很有智慧
ReplyDelete我未見過咁聰明既女仔呀 哈哈哈
我很同意妳所說的
只是 希望妳也體諒大佬們的心情
我們的敵人是中共獨裁 極權
我們是自己人 當中的爭執 只是很小的事
我當中也沒有壞人
至於大佬獨裁 有脾氣 自大 驕傲 這是人性
大佬也是人 不是完美的
我們欣賞的是英雄氣 小節 禮法 也不拘了
說"全是社民的人／點子"的都是傳媒：
ReplyDelete也是在台上的大佬
看見一大群支持者失控, 跑出來指揮人群、控制場面不是應有之舉嗎?
but they always talk about how tough they are and how they want to struggle struggle struggle and they NEVER do (except long hair)
every struggle is dangerous, but of course you can advise people not to do it, but that's not to say you should publicly humiliate those who do
你那麼介意社民連抽水:
this is a response from someone else (not me) who was there:
"其實唔係我地要功勞, 推跌個鉄馬有幾出奇, 只係d嘢明明唔係lsd做, 佢地就攞彩, 唔發難等幾時先"
and my reply: totally agree
it should be credited to a bunch of 無名的自發市民，而非無功勞及甚至起初反對衝破防線的政黨／政黨大佬
it doesn't have to be credited to any of us
but it should not be credited to those who didn't do anything AND made out we were so bad to do it in the first place
我們為何要當政黨的宣傳共具，esp. when they show us no respect
有知識的人都知有多危險, struggles ARE dangerous, and i've been in more dangerous situations
but there's a price to pay when you engage in struggles like these
and to be honest, sure it was dangerous, but being inside, i don't think it was totally out of control
the people on stage with a mic who didn't even come over kept saying how dangerous it was when they've never even been over here
sure it's least dangerous to stay at home and do nothing
but we refuse to do that
and if it was really coz it was dangerous that wong yuk man said what he said, well i just don't think it would have come out so harsh
if you care about someone's safety, why would you be so nasty about it??
another comment another person who was there:
群眾衝出去時，社民連大部分人正執行與警方商定「可由二十人抬棺材到門前」的「協議」。
群眾突破封鎖而影響既得利益者，在他們眼內這不叫「玩野」？！
vincent:
ReplyDeletethanks for all the comments and advise
i think you're right
we do need to work together
takes 2 to tangle though
so i hope we can work something out
these 'big bros' and us younger people - we're more and more active and there's more and more of us :-)
我無權代任何人說話，我只說我的想法和猜測。
ReplyDelete我先假設社民連的"大佬"不想你們衝。
你可知道他們不想你們衝？
因為他們不想一群青年因為一次其實在整個民主運動中其實並不重要的衝擊事件，而留下案底，影響一生前途。
上次有青年衝羅湖，私下也有不少人擔心他們被中共對付，始終，香港警察不會公然亂來，但中共是"顛"的，扣留一個月再加上非人道對待也不是不可能。
如果社民連真要抽水，有甚麼情況對它最有利？
環境：衝擊者之中及其附近多的是紅衫軍及拿著紅旗的人，就算衝擊者全部都不是社民連的人，傳媒也會當衝擊者是社民連的人。
假設A：社民連要加強其激進形象、突顯社會對中共的不滿。
那對社民連最有利的就當然就是鼓勵你們衝了。
假設B：社民連不想形象太激進。
那叫停你們是很合理的，但我覺得這不是社民連大佬的考慮。
而我覺得對的是假設C：
他們不想一群青年因為一次其實在整個民主運動中其實並不重要的衝擊事件，而留下案底，影響一生前途。
我沒有聽過社民連大佬的說法，但當日我離場時，和某獨立泛民議員(以前有街頭抗爭，但近年溫和了不少)談了一會，她完全只是擔心你們一時衝動，不知後果地犯法，結果幾年後才後悔。
社民連大佬，甚至不少骨幹，有些從七八十年代就開始搞保釣，他們很清楚社運這條路，尤其是走街頭抗爭路線的人的生活是如何地慘，他們不希望你們不知就裡的踏了進來，到後悔時才發覺沒回頭路，這是可以理解的。
當然，以上純屬個人猜測，我不能代別人說，我只能猜他們是這樣想。
---------------------------------------------
我對毓民的感覺是他向來都說話太直，得罪人多，但認識他的人會覺得他很關心年青人，也非常不想涉足人事糾紛，只想"完成民主大業"。
所以我覺得他直呼陳巧文的名，只是一時口快，並無惡意。
重申，個人感覺不代表毓民就是我寫那樣，但我覺得如果他有另一面，要同時維持兩種嘴臉是一件極為困難的事。
--------------------------------------------
說真的，在當時環境，除非對近年社運發展稍有了解，不然一般人只會覺得"這是社民連做的！"，現實時社民連有沒有表示，傳媒也會自動算到社民連頭上的了。
所以社民連根本沒領功的必要，因為人們自然就會算到它頭上。
-------------------------------------------
/另一社民連大佬（亦非長毛）卻居然呼籲「現需30個社民連糾察過來維持秩序！」/
那你覺得除了紅衫軍外，還有甚麼更方便的視覺訊息，讓人知道界線在那？
/我們不是早已讓路嗎？/
你讓了路，不代表後排那些人聽到，知道你讓路的原因而不再向前推。相反有一排紅衫的人手拖手對著自己，即使不知道發生甚麼事，後排看到的人也會猜得出社民連不想你們向前擠。
我自問在後排，連棺材放了在中聯辦門口這件事，也是回家後才知，現場太多噪音，後排根本不知道前面發生了甚麼事。
所以我覺得是你太多心了。
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不過，說出來也是好的，總比大家不說出來，互相猜疑好。
--------------------------------------------------------------
另貼一個留言，其他留言有不少難聽說話，就不貼了。
http://www.hkreporter.com/talks/thread-858565-5-1.html
（但推開鐵馬的是我們，領功就是他們）呢個講法都好有問題，如果真係因此發生不能挽回的嚴重事情，你估呢隻鑊又會搵邊個來孭？當然會係社民連的大佬輩啦！你估你幾位年青人孭得起咩！你要孭果Ｄ同社民連有仇的傳媒都唔會咁報導啦！下話！
would you please check if this account is accurate? many thanks, h.
ReplyDeletehttp://zh-yue.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010年元旦遊行
我本來知道江湖險惡
ReplyDelete所以不建議王千源等少女去爭民主 怕妳會像王千源一樣受到傷害
世間很多人性和愚昧
不過 今天看見孤軍作戰了20年的長毛有了很多支持者
也很替他開心
看了你給我的回復
ReplyDelete我實在不明白你對社民連對今次事件o既處理手法有何不滿.
我已說明了為何長毛要阻止你們坐下, 亦解釋了毓民在當時情況下是不能不出來控制場面的, 更以親身感受告訴你糾察的必要性.
我看你在翻舊帳, 說有人平時認屎認屁, 又重提 Simom Lee 及華女被罵的事, 小弟小人之心, 認為你們口說是"反對社民連抽水", 實際是不滿毓民大舊出來指揮. 小弟只想說, 推鐵馬時毓民大舊都在西區警署那邊, 根本看不到是誰帶頭, 沒可能是存心領功. 他們出來指揮是因為在場的大部份都是紅衫軍.
我之前已說過, 你那麼介意被毓民及大舊"抽水", 變相被辱罵過你朋友的政客抬穚, 下次便不要跟紅衫軍混在一起行動了.
其實知會聲主辦單位好好多，方便d安排其他人同記者，避免場面咁混亂出現意外，而如果話咩冇plan定都應該搵一個人去講一聲，有咩死傷主辦單位(你口中所謂既大佬)負責，唔係坐低/撞欄果班，都唔到坐低既人負責，社民連包尾出糾察都係避免情況惡化，甚至黃毓民話你，佢唔知你地會唔會有進一步行動姐引致進一步肢體衝突，不過我唔係佢肚入面條迴蟲，我唔知佢係.唔記係咁諗
ReplyDelete不過可以肯定既係一但有任何死傷既話有死傷都係佢地「咩」佢地係包尾果個，佢地要負責嫁，至於話當時not tatolly out of control係唔係要tatolly out of control，出左事先黎後悔? 到時太遲喇
我已說明了為何長毛要阻止你們坐下
ReplyDeletei understand, it's obvious
and that's not why we were unhappy
我之前已說過, 你那麼介意被毓民及大舊"抽水", 變相被辱罵過你朋友的政客抬穚, 下次便不要跟紅衫軍混在一起行動了.
we didn't deliberately get in the same crowd
we were FUNDRAISING and that's why we were at the very end
robert and aimak:
this 'safety issue', i've said many times that i think that if wong yuk man cared about me so much and worried for my safety, what would have come out of his mouth definitely would not be something as nasty as 「陳巧文，你唔好玩野啦！」
like i said, we thought sitting down would be safer, and we'd tried sitting down as a group and standing back up and sitting down
i don't know how experienced you guys are but sitting down definitely stops police violence quite effectively at times, and it shows that we're being peaceful
一但有任何死傷既話有死傷都係佢地「咩」:
as a said, 社民連或其他人怕被牽連的話，不要過來，劃清界線就好了（而當初她們的確如此）。這爭取民主的大遊行不是屬於社民連的，是屬於所有參與的市民包括自發或其他政黨的 -- 有非社民連或非支持五區公投的人在場，莫非你曾叫黃毓民停止用擴音系統宣傳自己的政黨及五區公投？總不能說因為有他們的人在場，我們便不可繼續堅持我們的公民權利。
為公義為民主，你地就搞權力鬥爭，你話人抽水時，自己其實係咪都想做最前線、做最上鏡o既人？如果你真係想爭取民主，為香港，為劉曉波，定為乜，你又理得人係咪真係做最前線，最緊要大家意向係一致。
ReplyDelete人地humiliate你又點？長毛比人humiliate左咁多年，到最後都有理解佢既人，最緊要你明白自己做緊咩，人地體諒真係咁緊要？呢Ｄ無謂既是非之爭都真係咁緊要？你要忍氣吞聲，係對於民主爭取所帶來的苦痛同批評，而唔係對於同道中人的不理解。
你話：「我們不斷被警察推、撞、拉、甚至打，唯有坐下以示和平及希望能阻止警察的推撞。」我想問下你既智慧o係邊？如果你係80後既表表姐，我希望你好好反省下自己講呢句係咪真係正確。後面咁多人向前推，你選擇坐o係度，到最後會發生咩事，我希望你會諗到。
你係activist，你唔係代表自己，你係代表住一大班人，你係爭取民主人士，你係敢作敢為既人，你係80後既表表姐，你更加要清楚自己做緊Ｄ咩，你既行為、人身，係會影響好多人，唔係純粹自己。社民連黃生講得o岩，「要激，都要有知識。」Be considerate, please.
我都係80後既人，我同你同齡。work hard，都要work smart。
忘了回復:
ReplyDelete你說抗爭便有危險
你無畏無懼我當然欣賞,但你要明白,每個人可以承受的風險是不一樣的,你們那時坐下的話,有危險的不止是你們,還有其他的人. 一大群人骨牌般倒下、形成人踩人的慘劇不是沒有發生過.
你說你身在其中, 並不覺得太危險, 那是因為你沒看清整個情況, 就像棺材進入中聯辦時你只在我二米以外, 卻感受不到我這邊人潮湧過來的壓力. 當時人多範圍大, 沒有人能看清整個情況, 所以只能憑常識作判斷.
當然抗爭便有危險, 但"留在家中看電視"跟"遊行時給踩死"之間有很大的空間吧.
人地humiliate你又點？長毛比人humiliate左咁多年，到最後都有理解佢既人
ReplyDeletedoes that mean if ONE PERSON in hong kong has been humiliated for years and years, then it's ok for everyone else to do that to someone else?
i have taken a lot of humiliation for what i've done, ever since i got that tibetan flag out
but what hurts the most is that someone supposedly on our side would say such a thing
你係80後既表表姐 - no way i'm a 表表姐
but it IS *common* activist knowledge that sitting down and showing that you're totally peaceful will stop the police from 推撞ing or hitting us
當然抗爭便有危險, 但"留在家中看電視"跟"遊行時給踩死"之間有很大的空間吧.
ReplyDeleteyes, but if some people can't take the risk, obviously they would not have come over to the other side with us
遊行時給踩死 is not what we want, and we try to avoid that
and it's not US who's trying to get people stepped on
if the police didn't stop people from exercising their civil rights, and then started pushing everyone around and hitting them, this would not have happened
黃毓民 出名口臭 自大 自以為是 目中無人 激怒了很多盟友
ReplyDelete妳又何需動氣呢?
黃毓民先生有咁既性格 我估是因為他曾被中共和黑社會恐嚇
而且一個有智慧的大佬 會慢慢覺得世界很多愚昧
可能會變得唔信別人 只相信自己的判斷 變得自大 太自信
這是傲氣 當很多人唔明白自己的時候 用歪理攻擊自己
自然會憤世嫉俗
黃毓民可能因為太多人攻擊他 所以他習慣了目中無人
我覺得一個人當他很有智慧的時候 會變得獨裁 只相信自己
one thing to add, ka shing, i really am thankful for the advise and all, and i know that work hard都要work smart, but sometimes, i don't know, we've been quite and been smart for too long
ReplyDeletesometimes we just need to do what's right
我也明白你並非故意跟紅衫軍混在一起, 我的意思是你們下次一定要故意跟紅衫軍劃清介線, 否則出現相同情況, 社民連大佬是沒可能不出來指揮的了.
ReplyDelete果然是真理越辯越明, 說穿了, 其實是不滿毓民及大舊出來指揮, 更不滿的是那句「陳巧文，你唔好玩野啦！」.
其實憤怒激進是因為世界太多不公平 不公義的事
ReplyDelete黃毓民 我覺得他不信別人 只信自己和自己的戰友
世間太多愚昧 不公義 做大佬既 會變得傲慢 變得激進
唔出奇呀
christina: "英雄主義對所有人（就連該「英雄」）也是危險的!"
ReplyDeleteI agree. Heros are those who dare to act when needed and when everyone else is looking at each other.
This time round, the little known hong kong citizens are heros. A job well done.
不滿的是那句「陳巧文，你唔好玩野啦！」
ReplyDeletebut you know what? i wasn't the one who said anything
it was another girl who said to him: how can you just say she is 玩野? just coz you're a dai-lo, you can say anything?
wong yuk man offends so many people on his side and one day, someone finally said: STOP IT
but none of his fan admit that he was out of line
不滿毓民及大舊出來指揮? not per se
it's just how they did it
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ReplyDelete社民連或其他人怕被牽連的話，不要過來，劃清界線就好了（而當初她們的確如此）。這爭取民主的大遊行不是屬於社民連的，是屬於所有參與的市民包括自發或其他政黨的
==========
現實問題是當時有9成人是社民連人，當你們開始推動鐵馬時，附近的社民連人都一定會自法參與。
除非你們待社民連走後再行動，又或事前通知社民連。否則在此情況下社民連一定會被牽連，而毓民、長毛等人一定要作出行動。因為你們的行為絕對會影響其他社民連人!
另外, 我想補充一下,
ReplyDelete當日我企係社民連老大黃XX附近,
我聽到佢講叫十幾"件"(真係用個件字)社民連糾察,
去開條路比個棺材抬過去門口果度 (個棺材係社民連的),
黃老大叫左幾次, 目的係想抬佢地個棺材,
印象中無聽到叫糾察係為左"維持現場秩序",
就算有我諗都係為左抬佢地個棺材.
所以應該唔係抽水,
事實上當時環境我覺得好需要長毛同黃老大佢地維持秩序, 我唔係佢地支持者都係咁話.
因為警察講既野我地聽唔到,
現場亦無其他主持者
只聽到黃老大把聲.
Miss Chan 會唔會因為當時太混亂會錯意呢?
如果係的話確要向社民連及長毛談談!!
P.S. 我唔係社民連支持者, 我為劉曉波出街, 我只係剛好果時企係果班老大附近...
唉~~~~我也身在現場, 當然明白是差人玩o野, 但作為遊行人士一份子, 作出正確判斷也是自己的責任啊
ReplyDeleteas a said, 社民連或其他人怕被牽連的話，不要過來，劃清界線就好了（而當初她們的確如此）。這爭取民主的大遊行不是屬於社民連的，是屬於所有參與的市民包括自發或其他政黨的 -- 有非社民連或非支持五區公投的人在場，莫非你曾叫黃毓民停止用擴音系統宣傳自己的政黨及五區公投？總不能說因為有他們的人在場，我們便不可繼續堅持我們的公民權利。
ReplyDelete佢地有得唔過黎咩? 冇錯個protest唔係LSD，不過佢地係搞手之一而且包尾果班，一定要負責，因為有責任，有死傷都唔到佢地話唔理，劃清界線，而家都冇人話唔俾你做，你做之前都知會人一聲，如果根據我估既原因係溝通不足既結果
毓民係忟憎 當太多唔公義的事發生 係人都會憤怒爆粗
ReplyDelete毓民係唔分敵友 照罵
這只是他的性格
他口罵 心裡知道我們是盟友
佢罵盟友 只因為他是極度激進 憤怒
是不公義塑造了他的罵人性格
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ReplyDelete不滿的是那句「陳巧文，你唔好玩野啦！」
==========
想問毓民講這句話時，妳在做什麼?
會否是長毛要三番四次叫妳唔好坐低，但妳仍然坐低，所以在毓民的角度覺得妳是「玩野」?
你們開始推動鐵馬時，附近的社民連人都一定會自法參與。
ReplyDeleteits not 一定 at ALL
and those people who did come with us judged for themselves as ADULTS
we're sick of accepting some pathetic political deals made by politicians and the police
if we say we're gonna go somewhere and tie a ribbon on the door, we WILL try and do it
instead of just standing in some box drawn for us far far away and shouting a few slogans before going home fooling ourselves that we've already tried our best
so some guy is the leader of some party, but those party members are adults who are free to choose for themselves AND take charge of the situation
for all those LSD people who came with us, WELL.DONE.
good on you!
想問毓民講這句話時，妳在做什麼?
ReplyDelete會否是長毛要三番四次叫妳唔好坐低，但妳仍然坐低，所以在毓民的角度覺得妳是「玩野」?
噢！說穿了，大佬要我站我不站，就要被罵「玩野」了！！！
看完那麼多留言, 我還是同意 aimak 的話。
ReplyDelete毓民(陳巧文?)係忟憎 當太多唔公義的事發生
ReplyDelete毓民(陳巧文?)係唔分敵友 照罵
這只是他的性格
他(陳巧文?)口罵 心裡知道我們是盟友
doesn't seem to make sense when applied to a small potato like me eh?
(or if it does, maybe people could go easy on us young activists!!!)
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ReplyDelete你們開始推動鐵馬時，附近的社民連人都一定會自法參與。
its not 一定 at ALL
==========
事實上就是發生了，小弟當時在遠處，但事後不少在附近的社民連人都表示他們都有份推鐵馬。
而道理上亦一定會發生，因為在當時的情況，妳認為社民連人會留意到最先行動的不是「自己人」嗎?
都係果句，如果妳堅持「社民連或其他人怕被牽連的話，不要過來，劃清界線就好了」，那麼請你們待社民連走後再行動，又或事前通知社民連。
當有智慧的大佬 做了50年人 他有很多判斷都係正確的時候
ReplyDelete自然目中無人 不拘小節
其實這是男人的天性
男人天生就是比較獨裁 尤其是有智慧的大佬
毓民係03年七一時哎咪哎足三個月叫人上街，最後促成百萬人上街的盛況。04年時被人恐嚇家人，被逼逃離香港，連份高薪厚職都無埋，妳依位妹妹係邊呀？毓民晨早講過有人畀錢佢叫佢收口，佢唔肯。而家妳因一兩件小事視毓民為敵人，有種你就做出比毓民更大犧牲的事，例如裸跑，無種就 OFF la
ReplyDelete唉....毓民口臭得罪人多是他也自認的事實, 大家也毋須為他辯解了.
ReplyDelete至於對他的態度是"容忍, "欣賞"還是"反感", 那便各取所需了.
大家能做的, 只是搞清客觀事實而已.
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ReplyDelete想問毓民講這句話時，妳在做什麼?
會否是長毛要三番四次叫妳唔好坐低，但妳仍然坐低，所以在毓民的角度覺得妳是「玩野」?
噢！說穿了，大佬要我站我不站，就要被罵「玩野」了！！！
==========
那麼妳是否承認妳當時真的再次坐低?
世間太多不公義和愚昧的事
ReplyDelete一個有智慧既大佬 每一秒都忟憎 激氣
香港貧富懸殊第一 假民主 中共玩弄香港人
怎會唔激進?
毓民係被中共和黑社會恐嚇後
ReplyDelete才變得更瘋狂 激進 目中無人
那麼請你們待社民連走後再行動，又或事前通知社民連。
ReplyDelete待社民連走後再行動: the crowd wasn't just my friends or lsd
there were so many others who could be mobilised at that point but would be gone later
not everything can wait
也沒事先計劃衝破警察防線,how would we be able to 事前通知社民連?大部分人事先也不知道有防線，而當時行動，是因為身變自發的市民都不滿警察的安排，決定堅持到對面請願
and yes! i sat down! so what?! the judgment long hair made was DIFFERENT to mine - we wanted to stay even though we knew full well the risks and he thought we shouldn't and being paternalistic for it!
I'M SO SCARED, LIKE SO MANY OTHER ACTIVISTS, OF BEING IN BIG RALLIES WHEN PEOPLE LIKE LONG HAIR WILL ALSO BE THERE NOW BECAUSE WE *HAVE TO* DO AS THEY SAY
OTHERWISE, 說穿了，大佬要我站我不站，就要被罵「玩野」了！！
YES! WE MUST OBEY AND SHUT UP!
what kind of democratic spirit is that???!
封咪事件
ReplyDelete2004年3月16日，黃毓民於尖沙嘴金巴利道遇襲，香港警方拘捕兩名無業中國籍男子李國華與崔偉明。其中一人被捕後曾於警誡下表示，有人付錢給他，要他打黃毓民。事發前，黃毓民的牛肉麵店與另一商台節目主持人鄭經翰的公司皆被潑紅色漆油搗亂。5月13日，黃毓民聲稱自己及家人受到中共及黑社會的生命威脅，打壓他們的言論自由，報基本法二十三條的仇，突然宣佈封咪離港，留低妻兒獨自離港，離港時只於電話中留下「身心俱疲、需要休息」數字作交代，要離開幾年。
2004年6月2日，立法會議員何俊仁於立法會討論中表示，黃毓民與鄭經翰曾向警方透露他們受到黑社會頭子不斷滋擾和施壓，對方揚言受到中國國安部中某領導所委託，只要他們收聲，願意補償給他們 。及後，黃毓民妻子亦表示有人曾揚言不希望於9月12日香港立法會選舉前在香港看見黃毓民。
2004年10月，香港《壹週刊》報導他長子黃特漢因被指藏有疑似可供販賣危險藥物罪被捕，他為解決他長子的官司而被逼返港，並於10月9日出席香港電台第二台節目《清談一點鐘》。他在返港後不久，與俞琤達成協議，為商業電台主 持節目《不談風月》。黃毓民在很久之後接受訪問時說回此事，他說中共在香港用金錢、和女人，對異議和民主人士進行拉攏、威逼利誘，行不通就會進而採取恐 嚇。在香港多名民主人士都遭到中共的恐嚇，黃毓民說，香港很多人知曉中共卑劣的恐嚇手段。它們恐嚇本人不行，就恐嚇妻子、家人；甚至到其辦公室扔髒物、潑 汽油。黃毓民開設的食肆就曾遭人潑紅漆。
what I wanna say is, no pain, no gain. Of course it is not okay for a person to humiliate you, but I do think that there must be people who don't understand you and assult you. It is normal, though it is not supposed to be. The fighting of deomcracy, however, is not a straight road. But I believe that "they" understand you. At least, longhair wanted to protect you.
ReplyDeleteCertainly there is no common knowledge, as you should take the environment in account, when there are lots of people pushing. No matter you were peaceful or not, no people would take care of you, as there were reporters, protesters and policemen, who were all out of control. 靜坐都要有群眾共識. you should know that.
唔係要obey
ReplyDelete應諒解毓民的性格 係人被黑社會打過之後 都會變得激進
變得瘋狂架
看了咁多回應, 意見, 都是巧文姐姐, 妳太出名啦, 妳一舉一動都會引起(特別係傳媒)各方關注及評論, 及無啦啦好似做左"80後"(lee個又係d 傳媒攪出黎的term, 暗地裡就有貶意, 80後都有上市公司主席架...)領導者咁, 其他80後就冇人理(e.g. 當時妳隔離就有穎禮哥哥, 佢都係常客之一,但有冇傳媒focus 佢呀??)
ReplyDelete成件事就係出於誤會, 大家一早有共識會自動坐低就會好"安全"也唔會變成嘈交, 幣在就只得妳地幾位坐, 而後面又唔發生咩事(或想睇清楚前面發生咩事), 好自然想向前衝, 咁就變成好危險情況, 攪到依家咁, 跟住到依家仍有"討論", 應重點討論的事變成冇人理
至於大佬言論, 果幾位大佬個個都咁有"style", 但細心看番...今次角色的轉移: 合鴿黨-> lsd ; lsd -> 巧文姐姐+其他80後, 大家說是否諷刺? 明明大方向的理念, 本應相同, 點解要攪到最好以後妳有妳做,我有我行, 好似互不相干? 唔駛嘈邊個會累邊個....
至於「陳巧文，你唔好玩野啦！」, 如果lee 句不是黃毓民而是一位年近6條的阿叔講出口, 相信妳一定不會有咁大反應呢?
冷靜d想, 那些人最想大家繼續為這個issue嘈下去??
妳依位妹妹係邊呀？so it's my fault i was born later than him???
ReplyDelete毓民晨早講過有人畀錢佢叫佢收口，佢唔肯。
SAME HERE! how many people have asked me to 收口???!!! i've received so many death threads and much worse things! i haven't shut up!
and of course your hero is always right and us small potatoes are always wrong
而家妳因一兩件小事視毓民為敵人，有種你就做出比毓民更大犧牲的事，例如裸跑，無種就 OFF la
when was the last time wong yuk man stood his ground and fought for his rights ON THE STREETS and got injured or got carried away by the police, eh???
犧牲?? we 犧牲 so much too! i don't see how he is more 有種 than any of us
04年時被人恐嚇家人，被逼逃離香港，連份高薪厚職都無埋
well, i've been threatened over and over again, been followed by the police and people who wanted to hurt me to my home and to my school- im sure you must have seen all this on tv or even just on the internet(least about the death threads), and i haven't 逃離香港, who's got more guts?
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ReplyDelete待社民連走後再行動: the crowd wasn't just my friends or lsd
there were so many others who could be mobilised at that point but would be gone later
not everything can wait
也沒事先計劃衝破警察防線,how would we be able to 事前通知社民連?大部分人事先也不知道有防線，而當時行動，是因為身變自發的市民都不滿警察的安排，決定堅持到對面請願
============
明白及同意。
所以妳亦不應該要求「社民連或其他人怕被牽連的話，不要過來，劃清界線就好了。」
毓民晨早講過有人畀錢佢叫佢收口，佢唔肯。
ReplyDeleteactually, no one PAID me to shut up, i misread it
but i've been threatened beyond your imagination to shut up
and i haven't either
so many you can at least show the same sort of the respect you show wong yuk man to me
而家妳因一兩件小事視毓民為敵人
i dont see him as an enemy at all
i think it's the other way around, if anything
ka shing, 靜坐都要有群眾共識, and we DID have 共識 and sat down together MANY TIMES - like almost 20 of us!!
ReplyDeletelong hair didn't agree. does that cancel the 共識?
but we weren't 靜坐, and i dont agree 靜坐都要有群眾共識
everyone's responsible for their own actions: can't just follow everyone else or expect everyone else to follow you
if you believe in something, well, you better do it!
其實毓民被黑社會打過之後 變瘋了
ReplyDelete陳巧文小姐 係人被黑社會打完之後 都會愛上罵人的
妳應明白毓民的心情 其實他一定受了10倍的逼害和壓力
至於「陳巧文，你唔好玩野啦！」, 如果lee 句不是黃毓民而是一位年近6條的阿叔講出口, 相信妳一定不會有咁大反應呢?
ReplyDeleteactually, 黃毓民是一位年近6條的阿叔, just with much more power and a big mob behind him
but if it's someone random, then no, i wouldn't have been so angry
like i've said, i've had worst things said to me every since 2 years ago
but what hurts the most is that someone i've shown respect for as well as stood on the same side with attacking me
there's a big difference
我和妳一樣支持西藏獨立
ReplyDelete妳是我的偶像呀
毓民瘋狂了 是因為中共逼害
妳應該比任何人更諒解他
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ReplyDeleteand yes! i sat down! so what?! the judgment long hair made was DIFFERENT to mine - we wanted to stay even though we knew full well the risks and he thought we shouldn't and being paternalistic for it!
I'M SO SCARED, LIKE SO MANY OTHER ACTIVISTS, OF BEING IN BIG RALLIES WHEN PEOPLE LIKE LONG HAIR WILL ALSO BE THERE NOW BECAUSE WE *HAVE TO* DO AS THEY SAY
OTHERWISE, 說穿了，大佬要我站我不站，就要被罵「玩野」了！！
=============
妳有想過妳「坐低」對自己的影響，那請問妳有沒有想過「坐低」對其他人的影響?
他們是包括那些跟隨妳們「推動鐵馬」的社民連人!妳可以當毓民不是為妳個人的安全而動怒罵妳，那妳可不可以當他是為那些社民連人的安全而動怒罵妳?
Christina, I can see that you are unhappy about what Yuk Man said. Put myself into your situation, I feel the same way as you do.
ReplyDeleteHowever, allow me to advise you that please don't take too personal from what Yuk Man said.
I think you guys and people from LSD would like to resolve this issue positively. Can you guys "sit down face 2 face" and work this out instead?
if i sit down for my own safety, how does that affect others who have LEFT, "包括那些跟隨妳們「推動鐵馬」的社民連人"
ReplyDeletei can't be stepping on people if i am sitting down
可不可以當他是為那些社民連人的安全而動怒罵妳: actually, there was NO "那些社民連人"who 怒罵 me at all
and i don't see why they would
and actually, none of us noticed any LSD people around me at that point
a lot of people had left
i mean, were you even there???
again, 說穿了，大佬要我站我不站，就要被罵「玩野」了！！
a comment worth reading, Thomas:
ReplyDelete匿名 已在文章 "(極關鍵片段) 元旦示威者坐地險被踩死‧長毛救人反被罵抽水" 上留下新的意見：
今次的抽水事件存在一定程度的誤會, 但事件讓公眾看到, 社民連的大佬們對非社民連人士缺少應有的尊重, 一如他們對公民黨及民主黨人士一樣. 平情而論, 擔心陳巧文等人士坐在地上會被踩死實在太言過其實了, 最多只能說是擔心她們會受傷而已.
more guts???? 毓民03年時係全港第一名嘴，高峰期時月搵百萬，佢敢於放棄眼前的厚利為民主，你地班青年竟然話你自己 more guts than 毓民？你有能力上毓民達到當年的社會地位才說這種話呢
ReplyDeletesuny pang, i agree
ReplyDeleteactually, someone "high up" in lsd actually came to apologize to us that night
he said he would like to talk to us young people and still work together in the future (i guess in a very marginal way much like yesterday)
which would not be a bad thing if it happened
i have tried contacting long hair and explaining what happened but he's not gotten back to me
not much more i can do about it
巧文姐姐, 放輕一點啦... 都是妳重視對方的緣故呢~~~
ReplyDelete雖然我都經常為左父母係我已經刷好牙, 梳洗完準備入房瞓時又係要贈句"hopingu, 好瞓啦"而好鬼忟......哈哈哈哈....
將d火留番係8號再爆啦.... 如果大家那晚唔係企在近皇后像廣場, 而改為聚集哂近泊車位那面唔比班功能組別契弟走, 會點呢?
guys, welcome to the age of swarming.
ReplyDelete===============
ReplyDeletei can't be stepping on people if i am sitting down
===============
可以用aimak的說話回應你
===============
aimak said...
你說抗爭便有危險
你無畏無懼我當然欣賞,但你要明白,每個人可以承受的風險是不一樣的,你們那時坐下的話,有危險的不止是你們,還有其他的人. 一大群人骨牌般倒下、形成人踩人的慘劇不是沒有發生過.
你說你身在其中, 並不覺得太危險, 那是因為你沒看清整個情況, 就像棺材進入中聯辦時你只在我二米以外, 卻感受不到我這邊人潮湧過來的壓力. 當時人多範圍大, 沒有人能看清整個情況, 所以只能憑常識作判斷.
===============
more guts???? 毓民03年時係全港第一名嘴，高峰期時月搵百萬，佢敢於放棄眼前的厚利為民主
ReplyDeletewell, it's just that you (or someone else?) said he was so brave because he was threatened (but than ran away!)
and i've been threatened many times
we haven't run away
we would never RUN AWAY
你地班青年竟然話你自己 more guts than 毓民？你有能力上毓民達到當年的社會地位才說這種話呢
maybe we'd have to do a lot of things we'd never let ourselves do to "上"(社會地)"位"
and we don't care for that kind of thing
but tell me, when was the last time he battled with the police out there
back in teh day, Long Hair's 社會地位 was never as high as Wong's, but he always got out there and fought for what he believed in
that gained my respect much more than someone who has acquired a high 社會地位
社會地位 doesnt mean much
you really have to get out there and fight instead of just talking and talking
re: hopingu: "而改為聚集哂近泊車位那面唔比班功能組別契弟走, 會點呢?" - what about
ReplyDelete"而改為聚集哂近泊車位那面唔比班功能組別契弟入場開會, 會點呢?"
一大群人骨牌般倒下、形成人踩人的慘劇不是沒有發生過.
ReplyDeletewell, i don't think it would have happened then
funnily enough, people i talked to afterwards also didn't think so
but whatever i say, whether or not you were there, you would just say i'm wrong and you're right
even though you weren't amongst us
at the end of the day, unless our judgements are in line with your heroes, you cant even accept the fact that we judged the situation and thought we did the right thing AND that your idols are not always right
you know what? this is so pointless
ReplyDeleteso many people can't even begin to TRY and see that maybe people from LSD were rude and disrespectful and paternalistic
they're always right
no matter what we say
you can't even begin to criticise them
and anyone who does, is wrong
i can't believe i spent a whole day trying to reason with people who won't even try to be reasonable
只能憑常識作判斷
ReplyDeleteand ONE big brother's 常識 is better than the BUNCH of us's 常識, right
again, 說穿了，大佬要我站我不站，就要被罵「玩野」了
Christina, thx for your quick reply.
ReplyDeleteYou guys and LSD supporter as well as Long Hair and Yuk Man all started with same goal, argued over on different point of view. They actually lead by mis-understanding and mis-communication. I personally positive about this. I am sure what written here will indirectly be heard by Yuk Man and Long Hair.
While calling LSD 抽水 might not be the fairest comment, so was not the comment "陳巧文，你唔好玩野啦！", if YM did indeed say such thing. Christina has said so many times that they didn't have hard feelings against Long Hair, even though they had different judgement on how to handle the situation. What pissed them most was YM's "open humiliation" against Christina and the presumptuous decision that they could and should regulate the crowd by the LSD marshals. LSD's advice at the time might be well-intentioned, but that didn't mean the young activists was ungrateful if they didn't take it.
ReplyDeleteLSD supporters and YM defenders, try to put yourself into the young activists' shoes. Had the Democratic Party openly called to a microphone "黃毓民，你唔好玩嘢啦！" or been sending marshals to regulate the behaviour of the LSD marchers, what would've been your reaction? I would imagine that it would've been way nastier than "社民連抽水".
Having said all that, Christina, one word of advice. Question the intention of your allies is not a smart, or even right, thing to do. I can totally understand at the situation one would say things that one didn't mean to say. But you don't want to alienate your alliance.
Of course this advice applies to the other side too.
其實小弟並不需要妳認同「『坐低』對其他人都有影響」，這是個人判斷問題，各人有各自的想法。
ReplyDelete只想妳明白當時毓民、長毛當時有此想法(當然至少後者有關心對妳自身的影響)，故此長毛三番四次叫妳起身，但妳都唔聽仍然要「坐低」，毓民才會話妳「玩野」。
但妳都唔聽仍然要「坐低」，毓民才會話妳「玩野」。
ReplyDelete大佬要我站我不站，就要被罵「玩野」了
hing wing, i think that it's hard for people who have not worked with the LSD to understand that they do indeed chau-shui all the time
many activist that i don't even work with often from all kinds of different groups say that
having said that, you're probably right that maybe it wasn't smart to say it at that point
or ever
though this is an ongoing problem and it needs to be solved, and it's hard to just avoid them always since they will always show up at big rallies as we do
still need to figure out how to deal with it all
thanks for the advise and the fair comments
suny pang:
I am sure what written here will indirectly be heard by Yuk Man and Long Hair.
haha, i don't know. maybe. let's just hope that something positive comes out of this
think i'm gonna stop sitting here staring at the screen for a while
this has gone way further than it should have
i just wanted to bring out the truth to diffuse the situation a bit
but thank you thank you thank you for all the comments and support and advise
唉！終於睇哂全部留言，感覺上陳小姐還是忿忿不平！還以為事情都已經過去了，次靜下來會好好想清楚整件事，想想當中的危機！怎知原來仍認為沒什麼大不了似地！其實現在這麼多人和你對話，是希望你能夠在日後行事時，要識得保護自己，亦要預估有些甚麼後果，自己能承受幾大的風險！而不是在責難於你！當然我對你的表現是欣賞和佩服的，請日後多加留意自身的安全，因為這是長期鬥爭，尤其是同共慘黨鬥長命！願主祝福你！
ReplyDelete妳仍然要回避毓民、長毛是有「『坐低』對妳自身/其他人都有影響的想法」，只重複「大佬要我站我不站，就要被罵『玩野』了」，那小弟都無話可說...
ReplyDelete講多一句，如果說妳「玩野」的是長毛，相信妳反應亦不會那麼大吧?
說到底，「夏韶聲事件」影響到今，無奈...
晚安
我相信 長毛 毓民 是英雄
ReplyDelete英雄所受的壓力 逼害 是很難想像的
而且 他們關心的是弱者 憐愛別人
但他們也是人 也有情緒的
而且 他們50年做人的經驗 見識 智慧
領袖能力 不是80後容易體會諒解的
新全民民主運動需要忍耐
ReplyDelete五區公投確立了一個定位，就是新全民民主運動，除了是鼓勵香港人以投 票就盡快普選和取消功能組別之外，這也是一次民主教育或啓蒙的機會，讓更多香港人包括 從政者明白民主的真義。老徐希望香港人明白民主化過程必須有忍耐，對與己不同意見者要 保持溝通並達成大多數的共識而不損害少數人的權益。事實上，在這次新全民民主運動，泛 民主派和80後社運青年必須保持耐性，互相補足，才能彰顯民主的真義，是為本人的深切 祈盼！ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW_euU74ZcE
Thomas,
ReplyDeletedon't know what you think i'm 回避ing
如果說妳「玩野」的是長毛，相信妳反應亦不會那麼大吧?
actually, i think i would be more hurt
but things that have happened between me and 長毛, i'm not going to comment any further
我覺得 毓民 因為太大壓力 太多煩惱和問題要解決
ReplyDelete所以連有禮貌和顧及別人感受的耐性和時間也失去了
我覺得 毓民 係一心一意為民主 其他尊重、禮節和小節 都抛開 讓路了
而且在戰場上 做大佬既係危急關頭 自然沒有禮貌的了
ReplyDelete自然情緒激進了 和指揮軍隊差不多 領導的智慧和效率很重要
"只能憑常識作判斷
ReplyDeleteand ONE big brother's 常識 is better than the BUNCH of us's 常識, right"
小弟想補充一下
我講"當時人多範圍大, 沒有人能看清整個情況, 所以只能憑常識作判斷."
我並不是指社民連大佬的常識, 也並非指陳小姐及其同志的常識.
小弟認為在人多秩序亂的地方, 實在是不宜坐在地上, 否則很容易發生人踩人的意外, 如果陳小姐不認為這是常識, 小弟也無話可說.
當然, 我並不能 100% 肯定當日陳小姐一眾堅持坐在地上便會一定發生人踩人, 也不能 100% 保證你們站起來便不會發生其他意外.
我覺得長毛做得絕對正確
ReplyDelete我覺得長毛做得絕對正確，年青人太衝動了，在這混亂的場面坐在地上很容易做成傷亡，這是極為不智的行為，過往蘭桂坊也發生過二十多人被踐踏死亡的例子，長毛只不過為了保護他們而已。
1992年蘭桂坊人踩人事件 1992年12月31日（除夕夜），大批市民及遊客到蘭桂坊慶祝。當晚在[[德忌笠街]]架設有舞台及巨型氣球，電視台直播現場盛況。警方當時派駐 118名警員在場維持秩序。
接近元旦倒數，在場聚集近2萬人，場面開始失控，有人噴射氣罐式綵帶、噴灑啤酒及汽水、擲扔酒瓶甚至磚塊，更有人焚燒報紙。1993年1月1日元旦子夜過後，有人首先跌倒，人群如骨牌般相繼倒下，同時[[威靈頓街]]不斷有人群踴入，令人群互相踐踏，有人甚至被四層的人群所壓。及後現場發現有人受傷，呼救聲始起彼落，人群才停止擠壓。大量傷者倒臥在道路兩旁，遊人的個人物品則散落一地.
====救援過程====
消防處於00:01收到第一個999求救電話，首架救護車於00:11抵達現場。由於現場並沒有設立臨時救護站，警員與在場的休班醫護人員首先協助救援，並現場指導其他遊人替傷者進行[[心肺復甦法]]。不少傷者手腳骨折，大部分重傷者因大腦缺氧而面部呈紫色，有些已經雙眼反白及瞳孔放大。擔架床亦不敷應用，不少傷者在進行即場急救後由警員抬上救護車。
醫院管理局於00:35採取「災難性意外事件處理」，派出流動醫療車到場協助拯救，傷者經現場急救及分流後，骨折及輕傷者送往[[鄧肇堅醫院]]；重傷者則送往瑪麗醫院。由於醫院處理的死傷者眾多，有媒體發現[[瑪麗醫院]]將部分遇難者遺體臨時放置在急症室的地上，此舉受到社會的廣泛批評。
所有傷者於02:34全部送抵醫院。[[消防處]]於兩個半小時內共派出20輛救護車，接載69名傷者到醫院
* 事件共造成21人死、63人受傷。
* 大部分死傷者為青少年及外國遊客。
陳小姐, 我是一個八十後的青年, 雖然沒有像你的熱誠去站出來身體力行, 但基本上是支持抗爭與自由民主的路線.
ReplyDelete元旦遊行令我驚訝的是看到youtube長毛惡形惡相的對你指罵, 以及"反對社民連抽水". 我實在不明白呢d野同當日既主旨有咩關連. 係咪連走在抗爭前端既人都擺脫唔到中國人愛內鬥既情意結...
我覺得你不可能沒有遇到來自紅衫軍既不公對待, 但也不覺得社民連儘力控制現場情況是錯的.(在人群裡自顧自的坐下 跟 自顧自的揮舞日本刀 是沒有兩樣的)
示威者可以自由表達/行動, 但這不是100%不受拘束的. 在人群裡發生甚麼預料之外的, 事後主辦單位跟主要參與團體是要對公眾負責的. 一旦身在這個'團體'裡便得顧及一下其他在場的人.
有一定智力與耐性既人可以在任何topic無止境地辯論下去. 與其甘樣, 不如將心力放在如何更好地策劃下一次/ 積極尋求方案解決今次既不愉快.
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ReplyDelete陳小姐，我個人非常敬佩你同其他無黨無派嘅年輕示威者嘅勇氣/堅持！！
ReplyDeleteYM我都唔like，但我相信長毛嘅人格，佢係真心怕你哋會出事。
Anyway，政治係醜陋嘅，一牽涉到黨嘅利益，任何領導都一樣(司徒老鬼同YM有乜分別？)，所以，我相信你所講，但係同時，記著要顧及人身安全，唔好俾仆街差佬有口實塔你哋返去。
Christina
ReplyDelete你說得對，做得好。我支持你。社民連不反省，祇會累街坊。不過大家怕鬧交，預左下次再被抽水。我相信勝利始終是民主派的。
我覺得陳小姐話LSD抽水係錯的,因為LSD三位大佬在隊頭only want個棺材放係後門就走,完全唔想同傞佬有衝突在隊頭講在好多次,只係唔夠多大聲公後邊D人聽唔到,我本人在隊頭聽得好清楚只係有人在後邊推鐵馬陣,攻破左防線D人就幫手去曬個到,所以後來全部都人LSD的人。
ReplyDelete但我相信長毛嘅人格，佢係真心怕你哋會出事。
ReplyDelete大家一路人 邊個抽水唔重要
ReplyDelete對自己人有箸數 俾自己人抽水又何妨
何況一定不是刻意的
再者如真的刻意抽水 應該番去先講
即時公開的叫很易產生很多不必的誤會與麻煩
我也明白自己努力的成果 卻被人佔風頭的不公平感覺
但如果是我的話 我樂意給80後或社民連來抽我的水
雖然不太同意你今次的做法和回應，但對你過去努力十分尊重欣賞。
ReplyDelete引用陳雲的一句話"有激進的人願意出面承受犧牲的代價，
是勞苦民眾的福氣，勞苦大眾不應背棄或戲謔出來抗爭的義人。"
對於反對社民連抽水的一些因由, 很多都甚為勉強。
除了"黃毓民用咪高風說：「陳巧文，你唔好玩野啦！」"
示威抗爭時被說是玩野，這口氣誰也吞不落。
盡管這次用詞不當或過火，又是否夠理據去高叫反對社民連抽水？
有無去理解背後的原因？
我比較同意aimak的回應，亦樂於看見你與aimak在blog裡的理性討論。
還有幾點我想補充，
1. 如果係要說推開鐵馬是一個功，這個"功"是傳媒給的。
今次「抽水」事件之澄清，相信你對傳媒的手法應以相當了解，不用多說。
我看不到社民連成員有任何去領功或邀功的行為。
我想長毛推開鐵馬一定比我兩多，這算什麼功又有誰去理會。
但請不要忘記搶先推開鐵馬者後面的示威群眾，他們不是在冷眼旁觀，
沒有他們以當時警力絕對有能力去守著。
一句「唔係lsd做, 佢地就攞彩」不能說明什麼，只是一句沒有內容沒有埋據的指控。
2. 抬棺材到門口一事，在推開鐵馬之前，是社民連與警方協商而成
(即抬棺材成功到門口，社民連示威者就會散去)。
即是就算鐵馬無被衝倒，相信亦可成行。現在被扭曲成，其他人(或80後)衝倒鐵馬
做成缺口，社民連拉起人牆，抬棺材到門口。做成一片紅衫入鏡,繼而邀功攞彩抽水，
這種說法怎也講不通。
3.「要怎怎怎抬棺材到門口，又把四五行動的棺材說成好像根本就是社民連的。」
上一次警方搶棺材是誰奮力抵抗給警方上鎖帶走？遊行至中聯辦附近時，
社民連支持者開出一條路讓抬棺材的走在最前面。
4. 「這爭取民主的大遊行不是屬於社民連的，是屬於所有參與的市民包括自發或其他政黨的 有非社民連或非支持五區公投的人在場，莫非你曾叫黃毓民停止用擴音系統宣傳自己的政黨及五區公投？總不能說因為有他們的人在場，我們便不可繼續堅持我們的公民權利。」
當日的是主辦團體民主動力，社民連口號與其他政黨不同，主力宣傳五區公投。為免影響其他政黨的立場，社民連已一早呼籲社民連支持者
留待最後出發。而當日社民連遊行隊伍人數的確比以往多。遊行至中聯辦附近時，警方已將社民連遊行隊伍和其它政黨分隔，去中聯辦時
其他政黨已走得七七八八。警方將社民連遊行隊伍和其它政黨分隔已是慣常做法，當你推開鐵馬時，附近的確有大批社民連支持者，給其它人或記者誤會成社民連行動應是預料之事。小數人獨立行動能準確聚焦，大型遊行時焦點則集中在政黨。作為一個負責任政黨，動員了大批支持者遊行，當現場太亂時是有需要指揮場面的必要性。
最後，在爭取民主過程中，就算大家方法不同，目標都是一致的。大家都是同路人，共勉之。
十月圍城中 個個義士都自願被孫中山抽水 犧牲
ReplyDelete我們如果想有民主 或者 民主社會主義
必需 要有十月圍城的革命者 的氣慨
要有那種團結 要有那種包容
敵人 目標 只有一個 就是 獨裁 和 不公義的資本主義自由市場
至於黃毓民的自大、激進、口臭和目中無人 其實是因為不公義、黑社會打他和中共惡勢力逼害 造成的
阿凡達中 男主角和另一位外星戰士 也是不記前仇 共同抗敵?
ReplyDelete不團結 中共獨裁實在偷笑了
也不能在民主戰場上取勝
陶傑、黎智英、司徒華、民主黨、公民黨、社民連的勞永樂
ReplyDelete都受過毓民的氣
而且毓民愛罵人
這是性格
是他的自以為是的傲氣 搞到目中無人了
Let bygones be bygones.
ReplyDelete花時間爭吵昨天的事，想想今天和明天的事反而來得實際一點。
make it this way
ReplyDelete1) 長毛想、亦在尋找一個方法達到大家唔好坐底, since he believes it is dangerous (and i agree). He uses the cop's speaker, he walked towards you.... he tried what he could.
2) 於混亂中, 能有一TEAM人出黎幫手維持秩序絕對是正面的處理手法；而作為「遊行領導者」之一的大舊(in deed we are all equal, but at least he has the publicity to attract attention)，於在場能調動and/or有組織的squard就只有社民連的糾察「部隊」；
3)承以上兩點，無論毓民對你的看法如何，佢當時要做的，就係要向「你果班人」傳遞信息；and YOU are in some sense a leader too? and probably the most significant one PLUS the only one he knows... in that sense, i personally agrees shouting「陳巧文xxxx」is more effective then 「你班人xxxx」。
每個人所使用言辭實屬個人「修為」，you might feel being offended, but that should not be the major issue.
~~
i don't think those 「大佬」 from 社民連 is THAT against you; if they could stand next to 民主黨(ouch), i am sure they have the vision and mindset to differ who is on the same side with them.
as others mentioned above, Let bygones be bygones... We need someone like you, as much as we need someone like them...
PEACE
「陳巧文xxxx」is more effective then 「你班人xxxx」。
ReplyDelete完全同意
戰場上 混亂粗暴在所難免
i'm not sure if some of you have even read what i said:
ReplyDelete"陳巧文沒說長毛抽水... 我從沒怪責長毛提醒及勸籲我們一眾年青示威者，也明白到他的關心及憂慮，因而我們有關「抽水」的言論，矛頭亦非指向長毛。"
so you guys don't need to tell me that long hair only did it out of his concerns for us anymore
WE ALREADY KNEW
i'd already put it on the TOP of this blog entry
long hair telling us that it was dangerous etc. wasn't what we were unhappy about
and it's pretty pointless to discuss whether it really was dangerous or not
most people weren't even there and even Wong Yuk Man was very far away from us
and again, that wasn't what we were unhappy about
it's how they turned around and suddenly made out it was all ok and heroic to go over there and that they directed it all
阿凡達的動物 不會說"阿凡達族人抽水"
ReplyDelete十月圍城的烈士 不會說"孫中山抽水"
我們也不會說 "長毛抽水"
如果是我 我甘願被"社民連抽水"
我未見過長毛對自己人如此惡,長毛是老鬼,身經百戰,一定知道當晚有危險.非常險,因此才出口罵他們,希望他們冷靜下來,這點青年們要接受和理解長毛的苦心
ReplyDelete大家都應是好兄弟,好姊妹.老一代吸收青年人的沖勁,青年人吸收老一代的經驗.只是一定要以平等對話,對話很重要......不要把朋友當敵人
ReplyDelete陳小姐一眾的表現,跟幫主上次護summer的事件後續有關,這個傷口如細心護理,身体会更健康,LSD会更強大.但幫主上次並沒選正路,反而破口大罵.小弟亦是在上次事件發現了幫主的大缺點.我同情這班年青年,但因大局問題,只好再支持回LSD.
ReplyDelete大家應體諒對方,好好合作.幫主不應在開咪時再破口大罵這班人.他們是同路人,是兄弟,金鷹思路口才了得,陳小姐學歷好,肥妹(很想知道他的名字)有能力,是人才,全是LSD以後地區出選的好馬.
不招安加盟,反而暴拒門外,笨得很.....
一个偉大的領導人,胸襟大,能容人才会得到更多人誠服.
希望正視
我們要說"中共極權抽水" 奪去我們的民主
ReplyDelete我們要說"商人抽水" 壟斷市場 剝削工人 消費者
社民連要抽水 為了誰? 為了什麼?
要有十月圍城的無私精神
ReplyDelete若果用自私自利的心態去爭民主
用爭功勞的心態去爭民主
一定不會成功的
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o254/cheung_iii/ScreenHunter_01Jan040820.gif
ReplyDelete從上圖睇請留意除左你地仲有其他人，糾察唔係抽水，係有需要，都保護左你地安全
'most people weren't even there and even Wong Yuk Man was very far away from us'
ReplyDeletedoesn't make you are the only one who knows everything and has the almighty right to comment on what happened there; our(my) concern is the conflict between you and LSD, and needless to watch the vid, its clearly shown from your blog post. Again i/we are not your enemy ( at least to me), but we are discussing and share thoughts of this common topic we have about HK's future.
first, as you claimed, yea maybe you didn't play against long hair, but he represents LSD- at least at that moment, he chooses to responds as LSD. You may DIRECTLY say sth against 大舊 and 毓民, but you can't ignore Long hair's present in that conflict- and you (and your lads) did shout at his face according to the video ( and don't tell me you were all cool and calm at that time). He has the right to feel AS OFFENDED and the responsibility to taking care of you lads- even though you don't agree nor appreciate.
'it's how they turned around and suddenly made out it was all ok and heroic to go over there and that they directed it all'
- so, YOU WANT TO BE THE HERO? and you sour they got the attention?
- ON THE OTHER HAND, let's say you did open a locked door; and now you bitch about whoever enters that door? the Road to Democracy belongs to all of us...
- ONE MORE THING. as Vincent said, "社民連要抽水 為了誰? 為了什麼?"
EVEN IF LSD did gain publicity in this issue... and it helps them to gain more support- in that sense, WE ALL should be glad.
我們的人權、自由和民主 是由無私 為民主犧牲的人 爭取回來的
ReplyDelete我們 抽緊孫中山的水
我們 抽緊六四烈士的水
我們 抽緊劉曉波的水
我們 抽了長毛20年水
我們 抽了毓民的水 他被中共黑社會逼害毒打
也抽了社民連的水
所以長毛 聽到 "社民連/長毛抽水" 心裡一定很難受
ReplyDelete因為 "長毛本人長期被人抽水" 無私地 犧牲了很多
.
ReplyDelete陳巧文口中的「抽水」不是這個意思 ( 享受前人努力爭取的成果)， 概念扭曲了。
說矛頭應指向中共，不要指社民連及「自己人」大概是不當預設。
陳的根本追求可能是「平等」、「公義」等普世價值，而非要將矛頭鎖定任何特定目標。
所以 A & B 雖然在同一場合向同一對象申訴，惟若在過程中 B 違反了該價值 ( 如「抽水」 ) 而遭 A 追究，不能說 A 的追究不合理，同時不能以「A & B有共同申訴對象」合理化 B 的行為。
.
Christina,
ReplyDelete送首我最喜歡的歌給你聽打打氣。
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBXJeKwtQhY&feature=related
"Joe Hill" sung by Joan Baez
I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
alive as you and me.
Says I "But Joe, you're ten years dead"
"I never died" said he,
"I never died" said he.
"The Copper Bosses killed you Joe,
they shot you Joe" says I.
"Takes more than guns to kill a man"
Says Joe "I didn't die"
Says Joe "I didn't die"
"In Salt Lake City, Joe," says I,
Him standing by my bed,
"They framed you on a murder charge,"
Says Joe, "But I ain't dead,"
Says Joe, "But I ain't dead."
And standing there as big as life
and smiling with his eyes.
Says Joe "What they can never kill
went on to organize,
went on to organize"
From San Diego up to Maine,
in every mine and mill,
Where working men defend their rights,
it's there you'll find Joe Hill,
it's there you'll find Joe Hill!
I dreamed I saw Joe Hill last night,
alive as you and me.
Says I "But Joe, you're ten years dead"
"I never died" said he,
"I never died" said he.
細個時我聽親都想喊。今日西方的人權是這樣來的，努力吧。
just a quick reply
ReplyDelete我們 抽了毓民的水 他被中共黑社會逼害毒打
so because wong yuk man 被中共黑社會逼害毒打, that means we 抽了毓民的水? i don't think so
"社民連要抽水 為了誰? 為了什麼?"
so you can't even comprehend that political parties actually do 抽水?
for votes, for power, for their reputation, for keep their jobs
for a lot of things
but if you can't even comprehend the idea that political parties indeed have incentives to 抽水, then i have nothing to say
jacob! i just listened to that song on my friend's facebook a few days back
ReplyDeletereal nice!
one more thing
ReplyDeleteHe has the right to feel AS OFFENDED and the responsibility to taking care of you lads- even though you don't agree nor appreciate.
i guess he has the right to feel as offended as we also had the right to feel exploited
and even though we stand by what we said, we NEVER blamed him for being angry
so i don't know what everyone makes out as if we did
'it's how they turned around and suddenly made out it was all ok and heroic to go over there and that they directed it all'
- so, YOU WANT TO BE THE HERO? and you sour they got the attention?
一位在場的自發市民及後在網上指出：「其實唔係我地要功勞, 推跌個鉄馬有幾出奇, 只係d嘢明明唔係lsd做, 佢地就攞彩」。我們希望要credit任何人的，就credit一群也許是無名的自發市民，而不是被一些沒甚功勞或甚至開始時便反對衝擊警察的政黨（大佬）。
- ON THE OTHER HAND, let's say you did open a locked door; and now you bitch about whoever enters that door? the Road to Democracy belongs to all of us...
no, we're just unhappy that we were opening the lock someone made out we were so wrong by doing it and then they go parading through it once we'd opened it as if they had the idea to do it (and did it) AND were so right in doing it in the first place
如果社民連同自發人士唔係同日上街, 就唔會有邊個抽邊個水問題...為免避免被人抽水, 下次可考慮不同日子上街...
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteChristina, I have read through the comments. Can I say firstly that you have the rights to say anything that you think is true, so it is ok to say "社民連抽水" in that incident.
ReplyDeleteI totally support your view.
On the other hand, an advice that we need to learn how to "舖舖清" (don't know what is the best words in English) on this issues when dealing with all other pro-democratic people. "大佬" may not be always right, and they will not say sorry to you as well (esp. the three 大佬s in LSD); however one should not linger on the disagreement on a single incident, at the expense of the cooperation on the fight for freedom in the long haul.
Hope it helps. Keep it up !!! HK needs you and your teammates !!!
讀畢「那麼請你們待社民連走後再行動，又或事前通知社民連」.....
ReplyDelete家下社民連係皇帝？老屈社民連既並唔係八十後，而是外面傳媒。因為傳媒與制度老屈社民連，所以社民連就要老屈八十後，就要老屈自發人士？家下條街係社民連買左？
社民連咁樣都唔叫抽水，真係唔知乜野叫抽水。
大家唔好嘈，我最叻，在遊行中警方截流，是我帶頭衝開膠帶，當時警方未放行，帶頭衝是我，領功的是民主派的大佬大姐和80後的大姐大佬，唔好抽我水呀................水呀.....
ReplyDelete看了這多貼，陳小姐好像是問題少女，包咬頸，再討論都是浪費時間。
ReplyDeleteanyway，只是小事(很像私人恩妴)，甚麼(玩野，大佬，大姐，抽水，英雄主義.........)，不過英雄主義好像是80後現在行的方向(我說的是這約20位80後)。
已大姐主義，又好像是你陳巧文，可能約20位80後我都不太認識。
抽水主義，案件重演，張所有角色換了公民黨，結果都是一樣，警方都是只會同公民黨的大姐溝通相宜，換了民主黨，更加不是，因民主黨是主張和平理性，嘉年華式遊行............
到現在都不知誰抽誰的水，因現在你紅過周秀娜。
anyway，如果真的想要真民主，請各自反醒。
陳巧文說:
ReplyDelete"社民連要抽水 為了誰? 為了什麼?"
so you can't even comprehend that political parties actually do 抽水?
for votes, for power, for their reputation, for keep their jobs
for a lot of things
but if you can't even comprehend the idea that political parties indeed have incentives to 抽水, then i have nothing to say
如果抱住咁既心態 我們是不可能爭取到民主的
十月圍城 孫中山時代
可唔可以說:孫中山的同盟會 興中會 國民黨抽水?
我們的敵人是六四屠城的中共
還要內鬥 自私自利 爭功勞 為小事爭吵 不團結嗎?
等於孫中山需要有人做保鑣 犧牲的時候
ReplyDelete我們還說: 孫中山/同盟會抽水
"社民連要抽水 為了誰? 為了什麼?"
ReplyDelete我的意思是 社民連就算抽水 最終目標都是為了民主和社會主義的理想
為了無普選的市民 窮人 工人
Let me ask you: who do you think you are, so important that LSD as a well-established political party needs to steal your credit??!! What things have you ever done for the people of HK?? What great & noble achievements did you accomplish that day that LSD needs to take advantage of???? Pushing down a fence or two?? You know what, all LSD did was to improvise at the scene after those fences are down, that didn't constitute an act of stealing anyone's dumb credit!!!!
ReplyDeleteLSD is running a defacto referendum campaign at their own expenses and sacrifices, and what do you do? You just make some random protests and do some flamboyant acts in the process, and now you believe you are important enough to smear LSD to consecrate yourself!
So, could you be so kind as to enlighten the people here: How can you not blush??
現在的問題是
ReplyDelete十月圍城的孫中山 魅力100%
但 黃毓民 魅力形象 好像遠遠不及孫中山
所以 陳巧文 不愛聽黃幫主指揮
Miss陳叫: "毓民delay no more五區總辭 !!!!!!!!!!毓民不該 押後五區總辭!!!!!!!"
ReplyDelete..........冇辦法唔講嘢...
ReplyDelete嗰啲話陳巧文 (唔只陳巧文，可代入所有投身社會運動嘅人)搏出位嘅人，你地同土共有咩分別?
啲土共成日都話LSD搏出位。
呢個"搏出位"指控真係好詭異! 點出位? 出咗位有咩著數? 有冇人答到我?? 係咪有錢收??
係咪所謂"上位著數"就係畀你地班花生友係咁响度話人地搏上位?
一個社會嘅人如果好憎啲人"搏出鏡搏上位"，咁當有人"搏出鏡"又點會畀佢"搏到上位"?
我邏輯好差，我真係諗唔明!
巧文,我首先表明立場,我本身是社民連會員,不過只是因為與社民連理念相近而已.我是70後,
ReplyDelete不論現在或以前,我都不完全認同妳的做法,不過欣賞妳,而"抽水"事件當中,我只對"抽水"一詞反感,及說話時機(timing)不對,並無其他感覺.
至於妳在妳BLOG之中的言論,我感覺越描越黑,亦曾在人網討論區有一面之詞,但聽左妳上青台講完後,有新的感覺,更加欣賞妳部分觀點,現在想同妳講少少我自己觀點.如果先前我在人網內的文章之中,或以下文章所說,有對妳不敬地方,我先此道歉.
首先,在妳的行為角度上,妳沒有錯,在行為抗爭上,妳都無錯,唯一錯,是感覺上出左少問題,拉妳起身之人,只想保護妳安全,並沒有其他想法,妳可能並不認同,不過試想想妳愛的人,以為妳有危險,一定會走過來拉起妳一樣,大家都沒有人做錯,只是角度不同,角色不同.
在妳對社民連當時做法不滿而即時表達的行為上,我稍有保留,保留不在於維護社民連,而是時機不對,當然,當時太混亂,未必有清晰思考,但妳要明白,社民連是一個團體組織,妳用的言詞,就要留心,如果妳當時直指某人行為上,言語上抽水,我並無不滿,不過對一個團體組織指罵,我卻有點不滿,至少我是其中一員,妳說此話同時,亦侮辱了我,這點妳必須明白,相信當時長毛亦有此感覺,假設有人罵妳家人,妳會否先不問情由先撐妳家人嗎?相同道理
另一方面,時機不對,是因為當時已經混亂,妳說話當中有挑釁意味,妳可能不覺出問題,但卻會引起部分社民連支持者不滿,就好似當時長毛,即時的行為,妳也擔心,或害怕吧,尤其一個妳認識的人已有此衝動行為,何況社民連有可能有更衝動者,只要意識出現問題,事情可能一發不可收拾,幸好當時情況只有長毛一人,不過現在妳也感受到一點莫名的憤怒吧.
對於社民連以往處事方式,我也有不滿,就好似毓民對妳一樣,是其中一個問題,我個人覺得毓民需要對妳道歉,但妳都需要對社民連道歉,要明白,個人行為不完全代表團體,就算毓民是主席,毓民都會有錯,而妳作為後輩,我建議主動接觸毓民吧,先妳倆攪清件事,再一同在某些節目澄清,總好過好似司徒華自說自話.
社民連有很多不理性的人,或有人想分化,妳大方一點,不要再說了,不要越描越黑.
至於做人態度方面,我總覺得妳仍有強烈自我意識,不要看輕妳身邊的年長者,學歷未必有妳咁高,但人生經驗,思考上,小學未畢業之人,未必比妳差,妳要學懂對人有寬懷之心,對事可以無,希望妳有更大的成長,體驗.
我只是宅男網民一個,有得罪的地方,再次請妳包容.:)
人類本性,自私、貪心、狂莽、自大....每一個也是....
ReplyDelete人類本性自私、貪心、狂莽、自大,
ReplyDelete不再存在於地球上,是損失..........? 還是得著.......?
聽完(得罪人多，稱呼人少)，對這事加深了解，我不會再攻擊陳巧文小姐，會尊重妳的。
ReplyDelete不過都是說{騎劫}，不是{抽水}
ReplyDelete"and i dont know how many of you were near us that day, but i think it was not likely going to happen at that point
ReplyDeleteafter all, you don't actually think that we sat down because we wanted to die, DO YOU?"
LKF事件發生前, 又有邊個認為it was likely going to happen at that point呢請問?
"we're just unhappy with the decision, which is actually really offensive. we're just worried that you guys were used
ReplyDeletethere were almost no reporters on this side - they were on the other side with the lsd people - that's how all the photos and vids came out from the other angle"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo1zblJQgZs
from 6:00 onwards, this vid shows that reporters and cameramen were on both sides, liar.
2010年1月4日上午1:00
"so if we put ourselves in a dangerous position, why does that means we're 「玩野」?? all struggles are dangerous on some level, if wong yuk man for once got out there with us, he would understand."
ReplyDelete根據你個邏輯, 係咪下次有人玩自焚, 任何人想要勸止, 都要首先"for once got out there with them"?
"as if we were gonna stop the coffin! why would we? it's a blatant political stunt
a comment from someone who was there: 「現需30個社民連糾察過來維持秩序！」這筒真令人發火!!! 如果社民連覺得自發人士是暴徒，他們連暴徒也不如！(當然，我看到有少部份社民連成員也有份推鐵馬，不過黃幫主太可笑)"
既然你都識話"有少部份社民連成員也有份推鐵馬", 咁叫糾察維持秩序有乜問題? 叫糾察就一定係針對你地咩? 唔可以係用來防"少部份社民連成員"咩? 自打嘴巴, 一見到糾察就當人針對你, 真係此地無銀三百兩(或者叫"崩口人忌崩口碗"也可).
"of course the later strategy is much safer, and probably politically smart, but i have much more respect for people who actually do as much or even more than they brag about"
當一個人唔再係獨行俠, 而要帶領一個組織的時候, 就自然多左好多包袱, 每個行動要對組織成員負責.
更何況, 我又打個譬喻, 早排你申請到legal aid去司法覆核告政府, 被high court駁回, 咁解你之後唔繼續上訴? legal aid唔批俾你你都可以自己請律師, 請唔起律師都可以自辯(長毛都係咁啦), 咁點解你唔上訴到底呀? 有legal aid, 政府幫你包底筆律師費你先做, 我都要讚你一句"strategy is much safer, and probably politically smart"啦!
"不過我也能理解，雖然影帶也紀錄了我們確實只喊「社民連」，然而當場的混亂及嘈吵也許令長毛誤以為我們是指他個人"
ReplyDelete"為何要指名道姓，公開惡意中傷一個市民？"
將兩句說話拼埋一齊, 看官們是否覺得好有趣? 若黃毓民不指名道姓, 咪有機會令其他在場人士"誤以為是指他個人"囉! 上面第一句, 顯示你明白呢個道理, 但第二句又顯示你犯了一個你自己都明白的錯誤. 由此可見, 若非有口話人無口話自己的雙重標準, 就是死雞撐飯蓋吧.
"訂定、實行抗爭，是大佬們的專利嗎？"
抗爭是否任何人的專利, 根本唔係問題核心, 而係當出現任何意外, 受傷(包括示威者受傷或警察受傷), 自發無組織的示威者當然可以拍下籮柚就算, 但主辦單位及其他在場團體卻分分鐘要為呢D行為買單, 咁人地當然要出聲. 出左聲, 你地唔聽, 以後才輪到你們獨力承擔責任.
"後來卻說成全是社民的人／點子"
"又把四五行動的棺材說成好像根本就是社民連的"
誰這樣說了? 開名吧.
"但推開鐵馬的是我們，領工就是他們"
請問他們領了甚麼功呢?
"在場多名友人都即時暗忖，這安排將令一片紅衫入鏡，又可順帶顯示社民連維持秩序"
呵, 這就是中共最擅用的誅心之論. 但你不要忘記, 你自己都講過"社民連成員都有份推鐵馬", 請問咁做又顯示左乜野.
反過來說, 你們大叫"社民抽水", 不也成功讓你們入鏡嗎? 那又是誰抽了誰的水呢?
Miss陳 老毛話: "革命不是請客吃飯". 我就話:" 革命不是做掟吓香蕉的馬騮戲, 不是在有佢講無人講嘅電台上爆吓粗口, 更加不是擊鉄馬就係玩野".
ReplyDelete陳巧文, 抽完水又扮可憐, 食屎啦!
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete華叔同佢唔革咀形就話人老, 80后唔受佢控制就話人玩嘢. 如此假民主真獨裁領袖非王"辱民"(侮辱民主王)莫屬.
ReplyDeleteMiss陳, 辱民王大戰金勞詹真精彩,似足兩條沒有文化巴士啊叔嘈交, 不過最肉酸都係頭頂毛都無絛十足一個大龜頭嘅大舊哀, 企响度岳個龜頭同縮頭烏龜詹嘈交. 十足一個超低智商嘅白癡佬. 反而長毛今次臨危不亂無好似果三條小丑咁, 加分加分給長毛. 領導民主靠果兩條小丑一定無希望. 民主靠你地班后生仔女啦.
ReplyDelete支持陳巧文!
ReplyDelete差人捉左佢一個,重有千千萬萬我地!
對香港警察失望!
辱民王都用大聲公話Miss陳玩嘢, 啲差佬仲唔打蛇隨棍上拉人. 好一次警"民"合作.
ReplyDeleteLSD already did such stuff during the Star Ferry/Queen's Pier occupation.
ReplyDeleteSupport to you Christina. Keep going !